United Grand Lodge of England

Ohio Brother Comments ON The Frank Haas Situation

February 15, 2013 by Fred Milliken

Some facts about Haas Yes he was expelled. I have the edict in front of me. He was not afforded a Masonic trial again. Our Grand Master cites a section (27.01c) that does in fact say that the EA and the FC should not be re-conferred. Doesn’t say that they can’t just says they shouldn’t. This is a lame excuse to take this action. If in fact this is this Grand Masters position they he should, he must, and is now bound to expel any Ohio Master Mason that has ever been a pro-tem candidate at their Lodge Inspection or any other time a pro-tem is used. There is no difference.

Lets be very clear about this WV is AF&AM and Ohio is F&AM. They are not the same degrees. So if I want to belong to AF&AM lodge then I must surely have to conform to their ritual and the same would also be true.

Frank was never given a masonic trial in WV and was never charged with a Masonic offense.; Even the Supreme Court of WV ruled that what they did did not follow their own rules. The only offense Frank was guilty of was trying to bring WV into the 21 Century.

It is well documented that WV Grand Lodge has taken their cause to other states to try to convince them to cut ties with Ohio over this issue. Our grand Master has chosen to take the easy way and has bowed to outside pressures. He has also basically slapped the 3 previous Grand Masters in the face by these actions. I will be sending a letter of protest to our Grand Master, maybe he can expel me in return.

Brother Jay Mayberry

From Perception To Knowledge To Wisdom

January 5, 2013 by Fred Milliken

I recently received correspondence from old friend, Brother Tim McCurry from Tennessee.

He points out a common problem with Mainstream Lodges. That is that Masonic education equals ritual memorization. But all ritual memorization makes you is a parrot and a parrot doesn’t think it just mimics. Knowledge comes from the art of contemplation that allows us then to internalize that which our senses have encountered.

When a Mason reads Pike, Wilmshurst, Pound, MacKey, Claudy, Butler and others he begins to realize what he has memorized means and how it makes a difference in his life. Thus he has gone from perception to knowledge. When that Mason uses that knowledge to govern his life and make himself a better person he has stepped up from knowledge to wisdom.

The trick is to get Masons to read.

Here is what McCurry had to say:

I watched a most inspiring video last night that was created by a member of the United Grand Lodge of England. Brother Julian Rees has truly inspired me to become a better Mason!

Approximately seven years ago, we had a Worshipful Master sitting in the East who truly and sincerely desired to create more Masonic education within our lodge. Therefore, he first asked for volunteers amongst the Brethren to create ANY small topic concerning a lesson to be learned from Free-masonry. He didn’t place any restrictions on what the Brethren could present; so long as it was something about our rituals, or something that they had learned while being a Mason. I am ashamed to say, that not one Brother ever came to our stated meeting and presented any such lessons. Our poor Worshipful Master ended up having to do this at each of our stated meetings himself.

Sure! We have “Masonic Education.” Many of the Brethren seem to think, that if you can memorize one of the three lectures flawlessly and without error, you have obtained “Masonic Education.” But, my concern is, have we presented enough knowledge to the newly made Mason coming into our ranks? Have we given enough knowledge to that new E.A. to even know what Free-masonry is all about? I don’t think so. No, we impart upon the newly made Mason that he only has three lectures to laboriously memorize as perfectly as he can; but if that new Brother makes a mistake of not “dotting his ‘i’ or crossing his ‘T,’ we strictly enforce the use of such perfection in syntax. Do we explain to him the meaning behind those words? Some would say that we do this with what we call the “Third Section of the Degree.” Here in Tennessee we have the so-called “Stereoptical Lecture” in the First Degree. You know what it is! It is that “so-antiquated slide show” where the pictures look as though they were created way back in the Nineteenth Century. So, we always have a Brother with the “slide clicker,” or the advance button, laboriously spitting out the lecture that accompanies the slide show as though he was reading it from a book. No! As a matter of fact, sometimes the Brother actually does read this lecture out of the book!

But, have we really imparted Masonic Knowledge to that newly made Brethren? Or have we imparted the idea that all you really need to do is laboriously learn the three lectures, pass them on, and become a Master Mason? In essence, are we treating our Masonic ritual as though it were a “Mason’s Mill,” where we pass these young brothers off as soon as we can, and as quickly as we can teach them those three lectures?

Brother Julian Rees inspired me with his words last night! I do not know this Brother. I have never met him. But, his eloquent talk that he gave inspired me to learn more! He taught me, that we as Brothers are on a spiritual journey; that there is more to Masonry than ham sandwiches and coffee. Therefore, I present Brother Rees to you with the hope that he will inspire you with his words as much as he has inspired me. I wish I could present this “little talk” by Brother Rees to the Brethren at my own lodge!

March 6th A Legacy Of Having Been Tried, Sometimes Denied, But Always Ready To Be Tried Again

March 6, 2012 by Fred Milliken

Two hundred thirty seven years ago today, on March 6, 1775, Prince Hall, Cryrus Jonbus, Buestop Slinger, Prince Rees, John Carter, Peter Freeman, Benjamin Tiler, Cuff Bufform, Thomas Sanderson, Prince Taylor, Cato Spears, Boston Smith, Peter Best, Forten Howard and Richard Tilly were made Master Masons in a British Army Lodge of Irish register. The Lodge gave them the privilege of meeting, marching in procession, and burying their dead, but not conferring degrees. In March, 1784, Brother Hall petitioned the Grand Lodge of England for a charter which was issued September 29, 1784, but was not delivered until April 29, 1787, establishing African Lodge 459 on May 6, 1787. Four years later, on June 24, 1791, the African Grand Lodge was formed with Prince Hall as Grand Master. MWB Hall died December 7, 1807. Subsequently, in his honor, the Lodge became M.W. Prince Hall Grand Lodge, F&AM, of Massachusetts. Today, the great majority of US state Grand Lodges as well as the Grand Lodge of England and many international Grand Lodges recognize Prince Hall Lodges.

It may seem strange to some because of the fierce determination for the astute ,mason of darker persuasion to be identified, not just as a mason, but as a Prince Hall Mason. There is a difference in “masons.” Because of the trials and tribulations that we, as Prince Hall Masons have endured, it is with a great sense of pride to be privileged to wear the name. It is mute and vocal testimony to the fact that, “Prince Hall, we’re still here!”

A lot of things are not appreciated in life, sometimes because the method used in gaining the honor, the privilege, or the tangible product, is not one where it called for a sacrifice of some sort. Not so with Prince Hall Masons, for we have, “been up the creek, and down the river.” The Prince Hall Mason can truly say, “I have often been tried, but never denied…” The background, the legacies, the involvement of the Prince Hall Masons in the growth of the meaningful things that were gained in the Black Experience and the Black Church, speak louder than the negative reports that sometimes seep into our midst. Prince Hall Masons have many things to be proud of, because of the sacrifices made by those brothers and sisters in by-gone years. I for one do appreciate the many years of their sacrificial efforts.

Because of its beautiful history, Prince Hall Masons have come under attack, by word and deed. There have been court cases, negative media coverage, and by and large, an exclusion from the pages of history found in libraries or in private collections, sorry to say. However, little by little, the story is being told of the many worthwhile things that have been done in the name of human endeavors by those brethren of the craft. Because of its beautiful history, Prince Hall Masons have had to endure many groups professing to be “masons.” Some even carry the name, “Prince Hall Mason,” but the result is not the same. It is said that “Imitation is the highest form of flattery” or something to that order. However, when the term, “mason” is used, everyone should be aware that it does not always mean, “Prince Hall Mason” and there is a difference.

When one considers Prince Hall, one can readily understand why there would be attempts at duplicating the fraternity that bears his name. It is a proud name, one that can stand up to the criticisms that may come from opponents; one that can, because of the many brothers and sisters that wear the name, withstand the court cases and innuendos of smaller minds. Prince Hall was a man that American History can be proud of, even though some today may feel threatened by the love some members have for their order

Freemasonry is a system of morality, a system that is shared between members of the Masonic Family, and then is shared with the community at large. It is not a secret system, for the lessons come from the Holy Bible, the Holy Koran, the Vegas, and many other religious books found wherever there is a system of religious ideals. Because of the Judeao-Christian principles practiced by the bulk of the Prince Hall membership, it stands to reason the main teachings regarding Freemasonry would come from the Holy Bible.

Prince Hall may not have foreseen the results of his endeavor way back in 1775 when he and 14 other Blacks were initiated into the Masonic Order. He may not have foreseen the many hundreds of thousands of members world-wide that we see today. But Prince Hall did believe in a God that “sits high” and looks low.” That belief was fostered down through many generations of Afro-Americans, and now includes members of all racial persuasions. It is a dream come true for anyone that dared to dream in 1775. We cannot say that those members did dream in 1775, but I am sure that the same God that blessed their endeavors back then is still in the blessing business, for we are the recipients of His grace and goodness. Our very survival and presence bear witness to that.

It was not in man’s cards that we be here, for the mason of old had to “be tried, sometimes denied, but stood ready to be tried again.” Those days of physical opposition are gone now. The days of being in court, defending your right to be called Prince Hall Masons, are now history. The blood that was shed for the right that was taken for granted by all other Americans, shall not be in vain, and we revere our dead members, we celebrate the birth of our founder and benefactor, Prince Hall, the man, the mason, the patriot, the preacher! We’re still here, Prince Hall! (1)

(1) Prince Hall, We’re Still Here, Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge of Arkansas – http://www.arkphagrandlodge.com/still_here.htm

The Bee Hive is indebted to Brother Antonio Caffey, PM St. Mark’s Lodge No. 7, Columbus, OH for an excellent video and for The Phylaxis Society and The Most Worshipful Prince Hall Grand Lodge Of Arkansas for text.

Some Interesting Masonic Trivia

February 26, 2012 by Fred Milliken

Taken mostly from “The Truth is Stranger than Fiction”
By Bro. Alphonse Cerza,
Masonic Service Association,
1934.

register, masonic paper, freemason history — Masonic Register from 1876

At one time, Golden Lodge #5, Stanstead, Canada occupied a lodge room, which straddled the boundary between Canada and the United States. There were entrances on both sides of the border.

Washington Chapter #3 of Portsmouth, NH announced its meetings via the town crier, who received from 6 to 25 cents for his work.

In 1872 the Commissioner of Patents held that the Masonic emblem could not be used in a trademark or trade name for commercial purposes.

In Hammer v. State, 173 Indiana, 199 (1909), the Supreme Court ruled that it was a criminal offense to wear the emblem of any society or organization of which one is not a member. The court based its decision on the fact that the membership in such societies is the result of fitness and selection and that the wearing of such emblems by non-members is a deceit and false pretense.

In Robinson v. Yates City Lodge, 86 Illinois, 598 (1877), a court ruled that an expelled Mason was not entitled to the return of his degree fees. The court held that the plaintiff voluntarily paid the fees and the expulsion under the provisions of the rules of the organization does not constitute the rescission of a contract under which the fees were paid.

Frederick A Bartholdi, a freemason, designed the statue of Liberty which stands in NY harbor. The Grand Lodge of NY laid the corner stone on August
5, 1885.

Bernard Pierre Mangam, Marshall of France and Senator was appointed Grand Master of the Grand Orient of France and served from 1862 to 1865. This is unusual because he was not a Mason. He was appointed by Emperor Napoleon III.

The letters of the English word GOD are the first three letters of Hebrew words for beauty, strength, and wisdom. G in Gomez, O in Oz, D in Dabar.

In 1860 in Limerick, Ireland, there as found a stone in a small chapel, dated 1517, with the following inscription: “I will serve to live with love & care, upon the level, and by the square.”

Francis Stephens, the Duke of Lorraine, received the first two Masonic degrees in 1731 in a special lodge convened at The Hague, Holland, becoming the first known royal freemason. Later he received the third degree in England. In 1735 renounced his title.

Dr. Joseph Ignace Guillotine was a member of Concorde Fraternelle Lodge of Paris and a member of the French Assembly. He obviously invented the device that bears his name and was later executed with one.

The Rev. William Dodd, first Chaplain of the Grand Lodge of England, was hanged for forgery on June 2nd, 1777.

In 1839 the Mormons left Missouri and settled in the area of Nauvoo, IL. On October 15, 1841, the IL Grand Master issued a dispensation to form a lodge at Nauvoo. On March 15th, 1842, Joseph Smith received his first degree and the others shortly after. Certain irregularities were reported – in five months the lodge initiated 256 candidates and 243 were raised. After investigation, the Grand Master revoked the dispensation, but the lodge continued to work. On April 5, 1844, the Mormon masons dedicated a Masonic Temple. IL Masons got in trouble for taking part in the ceremony. Opposition to the group and internal dissension led to the assassination of Joseph Smith and the removal of the Mormons from IL.

Operative Lodge #150 in Aberdeen, Scotland is unusual in that it is only open to operative stonemasons.

Dr. Edward Jenner, in 1789 discovered the vaccination process against smallpox. He was worshipful master of Faith and Friendship Lodge #270 in Berkeley, England at the time.

In July 1863, Confederate raiders rode into Versailles, IN, capturing the local militia and stealing the county treasury. The next day, General John Morgan (CSA), learned that his men had also made off with the jewels of the local lodge. They were returned the following day. Morgan was from Daviess Lodge #22, Lexington, KY.

Wheelock Commandery No. 5 in Texas had all 55 of its members killed serving in the Confederate Army. The Commandery ceased to exist.

Missouri’s first Confederate Capitol was the Masonic Building in Neosho, MS. From here the legislature passed the Act of Secession.

USA General Thomas Benton, also Grand Master of Iowa, ordered Federal troops to protect Albert Pike’s home and prevent the library from being burned, when his troops took Little Rock, AR.

July 2, 1751, Ferdinand VI of Spain issued an edict against Freemasonry. Father Jose Torrubia secured a special dispensation from the Pope, joined a lodge, secured the names of its members, and proceeded to have them arrested. Hundreds were arrested, persecuted, and imprisoned.

When Mussolini gained control of Italy, Masonic lodges were declared illegal and the Grand Master was arrested, tried, and imprisoned, where he died.

Mussolini also ordered all Masonic references removed, including the emblems on the base of Garibaldi’s monument in Rome.

After the restoration of the republic, fascist emblems were removed and the Masonic emblems restored.

In Fascist Spain under Franco, it was a crime to be a freemason. Masons convicted had to serve prison terms equal in years to the number of Masonic degrees possessed. Master Mason – 3 years.

Winnedumah Lodge #287 of Bishop, CA holds its meetings at 270 feet below sea level, the lowest lodge in North America.

In 1954 Martin’s Station Lodge No. 188 of VA was opened 952 feet below the surface of Cumberland Mountain in Cudjo’s Cave, which lies between Cumberland Gap, Tenn. and Middleburo, KY. 345 Masons were present and a MM degree was conferred.

Chicago, IL has three American Legion Posts whose memberships are entirely Masonic.

All four Presidents of the Republic of Texas, David Burnett, Sam Houston, Mirabeau Lamar, and Anson Jones, were Masons.

Between 1737 and 1779 two sailing ships of interest operated off the U.S. eastern seaboard, Freemason and Master Mason.

The Freemason caught fire and sank in Marblehead Harbor, Mass in 1779.

On November 10, 1928, the Grand Lodge of California held a special communication at Culver City, to lay the corner stone of the Masonic temple. The lodge room was so crowded that the Grand Lodge officers were unable to enter. They retired to the Ladies’ powder room to open the grand lodge for the ceremony.

In 1801, Czar Alexander I of Russia banned the craft. In 1803 he rescinded the order and became a Freemason. But in 1822 he again ordered Freemasonry banned in Russia.

In May, 1843, a group of representatives from fourteen Grand Lodges met in Baltimore, MD, with the view of adopting uniform Masonic rituals. The meeting was presided over by John Dove of VA; Charles W. Moore of Mass. prepared the proposed ritual. The convention’s work was not generally accepted.

In 1799, Barton Lodge in Upper Canada accepted “good merchantable wheat” in payment of lodge dues.

Lodge St. George in Bermuda has rented an old state house since 1816 from the Governor for the sum of “one peppercorn per year.”

Abraham Jones served as Grand Master of Kentucky 1833-34 and Grand Master of Illinois, 1840-41.

Dr. Carlos Rodriguez-Jimenez was grand master of the grand lodge of Venezuela in 1947.

In 1957 he became the grand master of the Grand Lodge of Japan.

In 1892, the tallest building in the world was the Masonic Temple at Randolph and State Streets, Chicago, IL.

Brother William Brockmeier (1866-1947) of St. Louis conducted 5586 Masonic funeral services.

Thomas Jacob Shryock served as Grand Master of Masons in Maryland for 32 years. He died after being elected to serve his 33^rd Term.

The largest Master’s chair is in Ophir Lodge #33 Murphys, CA. It is 15 feet long and can seat the Master, living Past Masters, and visiting dignitaries.

On June 7, 1921, Mystic Lodge #21 of Red Bank, NJ had conferred half of the MM degree on brother Lyman C. Van when the power went out. He didn’t receive the rest of the degree for several weeks, making him for a time, a “two and half degree” mason.

When the great Obelisk of Alexandria (Cleopatra’s Needle) was moved to New York in 1880, there were discovered certain emblems on the original foundation and pedestal. One is clearly a square, causing some to conclude that Masonry existed in ancient Egypt. This issue is still open to debate.

The two structures in the U.S that have elevators which move sideways, in addition to up and down are the Arch in St. Louis and the George Washington Masonic Memorial in Alexandria.

The Grand Master of Mass. commanded rebels at Bunker Hill while the Grand Master of England commanded English forces. The G.M of Mass. was killed.

On August 23, 1879, Lodge #239 of France held a meeting in a balloon flying over Paris, at which time a candidate was initiated.

On his famous solo flight across the Atlantic, Charles Lindbergh wore a square and compasses on his jacket as a good luck piece. He was a mason.

Richard E. Byrd and his pilot Bernt Balchen, both brothers, dropped Masonic flags over the north and south poles. Brother Balchen also tossed his Shrine Fez on the South Pole.

Gordon Cooper, in his Mercury capsule, carried a Masonic coin and a blue Masonic flag on his 22 orbit flight, which he later presented to his mother lodge.

Montana’s first livestock brand was the Square and Compasses and is still in use. It was registered by Poindexter & Orr of Beaverhead County, MT in 1873.

Andrew McNair, a Philadelphia Mason, rang the Liberty bell in Independence Hall of July 8, 1776 to call the people together to hear the reading of the Declaration of Independence. The bell developed a crack when it was rung for the death of Chief Justice Marshall, Past Grand Master of Virginia.

Grand Masters generally have the power to make “masons at sight,” which means the Master can do away with the formalities such as filing of petitions, waiting periods, etc. Some famous Masons who were made include: William H. Taft, General George Marshall, and General Douglas MacArthur.

In the 1800’s several grand lodges established Masonic colleges. The most successful of which was in Hannibal, MS in 1847. Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas, North Carolina, and Georgia all tried it but all were eventually closed due to lack of support.

In the spring of 1966, brother Dallas Coleman of Denison Lodge #373 of Kansas was digging a pond when he came across an overturned gravestone marked with the Square and Compasses. Research lead to a determination that it belonged to Brother Henry Craig (1832-1862) of Valley Falls Lodge #21. The brethren of the lodge reset and cleaned the monument and erected a fence around it to keep livestock away and continue to maintain it.

Lyndon Johnson took the first degree of Masonry on October 30, 1937 but never progressed any further.

Sam Rayburn, Speaker of the House took his first degree on August 7, 1922. He died in 1961 without receiving the second.

Warren G. Harding was initiated on June 28, 1901 and it took him 19 years to complete the other two.

Lodges in Mass. have no numbers.

In Penn. there are 11 lodges that have numbers but no names.

In Georgia there are two lodges with the number 1.

In Maryland, Tennessee and Penn. there is no lodge with the number 1

Masonic Place Names in the US: Anchor, IL, Beehive, MT, Boaz, AL, Charity, MS, Circle, MT, Cowan, TN, Emblem, WY, Eureka, WV, Faith, SD, False Pass, AK, Fidelity, IL, Five Points, AL, Freeborn, MN, Grand Pass, MS, Hiram, MA, Hope, AK, Jachin, AL, Justice, IL, Lodge, SC, Mason, KY, Masonic Home, KY, Masontown, WV, Square, MT, Steward, IL, Symbol, KY Temperance, MI, Tyler, TX.

Hiram Abiff Boaz, born Dec. 18 1866 in Murray, KY. Received his degrees in 1922 before an unusually large crowd and served as Grand Chaplin (TX) in 1953.

Joseph A. Gilmore (1811-1867), former governor of N.H. was made a Mason at sight on April 28, 1863. He received Scottish Rite degrees and was awarded 33rd degree on May 7, 1863 – only 9 days later.

Between 1890 (when it became a state) and 1951, every Governor of Wyoming, except one, was a Mason. The one, Mrs. William A. Ross, was the wife of a mason and a member of Eastern Star.

Every President from Tenn. was a Mason (Jackson, Johnson, Polk)

President FDR raised two of his sons on the same night, Nov 7, 1935 – Architect Lodge #519 in NY.

In 1951, while President, Harry Truman served as Master of his lodge.

Sacramento Chapter #3, Royal Arch Masons has supplied 4 governors of CA. (J. Neeley Johnson, Lantham, Pacheo, Hiram Johnson)

William Hesketh Lever Lodge #2916, England was the only lodge named for a non-mason, the first Viscount of Leverhulme (the soap manufacturer) who was first initiated there and later formed Leverhulme Lodge #4438.

Paul Revere was a Mason, as was his cohort, Robert Newman, who hung the lantern in the Old North Church.

Angelo Soliman, was born in Africa in 1721 and brought to Europe as a slave at the age of ten. He was educated, married, and became a favorite in the royal court in Vienna. Somewhere before 1771 he became a mason. When he died 1776, the Emperor had his body stuffed and mounted in the Natural History Museum, becoming not only the first black of African birth to become a mason, but the also the first mason to be stuffed, mounted, and displayed.

John Aasen of Highland Park Lodge No. 382 in Los Angeles, CA was the largest known MM ever raised. At the time he was 8.5 feet tall and weighed 536 pounds.

Charles Stratton, a.k.a. Tom Thumb, was 24 inches high and weighed 16 pounds when raised in 1862.

Theodore Parvin was Grand Secretary for Iowa from 1844 to 1901, except for 1852- 53 when he was Grand Master.

When asked of Masonry, President William McKinley explained: “After the battle of Opequam, I went with the surgeon of our Ohio regiment to the field where 5,000 confederate prisoners were under guard. As soon as we passed the guard, the doctor shook hands with a number of prisoners and began passing out his roll of bills. On the way back to camp I asked him, ‘Did you know those men?’ ‘No’ ‘But you gave them a lot of money, do you expect to get it back?’ ‘If they are able to pay me back, they will. It makes no difference to me; they are brother masons in trouble and I am only doing my duty.’ I said to myself, ‘If that is Masonry, I will take some of it myself.'”

– Sent to Beehive from Carl’s List

Will A Collapsing World Bring Down Lodges With It?

August 22, 2011 by Fred Milliken

Over the last decade here is what local Masonic Lodges should have been doing.

They should have increased their dues sufficiently to not only pay for the running of their Lodges but also have salted away some money in the bank account and investments. Instead of doing fund raisers they should have looked for additional income by renting out their Masonic Hall or any collateral property attached to the Hall owned by the Lodge.

They should have been seeking endowments from their members and instead of authorizing the Treasurer to take the extra income down to the bank and buying a CD, the Lodge should have hired a certified financial planner.

In urban and suburban situations Lodges in one area should have tried to operate all from one building. If you travel to England you can find as many as 20 Lodges meeting in one building, and Brothers paying $20 or more each meeting for a meal and the festive board. In our very mobile modern society where there was once a Lodge in every town, today it would be much more economical to have just one Hall per Masonic District.

These ideas have certainly been posted on this site before. So why repeat them now?

With Europe collapsing before our eyes; with the United States economy faltering, unemployment above 9% with no signs of abating, GDP growth in the neighborhood of an anemic 1%, the stock market tanking, one has to wonder about the financial stability of Masonic Lodges.

Those that have refused to run their Lodges like a business and have insisted on doing Masonry on the cheap may not be able to survive if the country’s economy continues to worsen. Especially vulnerable are rural Lodges and Lodges who cannot consolidate buildings. Those Lodges with a building all their own with no tenants, low dues and no money in the bank account or in investments probably will not survive.

We could be looking at the largest amount of Lodges disbanding and turning in their charters in the history of this nation. If we are it will be because many Lodges refused to take the necessary steps to put themselves on a sound financial footing when they had the opportunity. Any good businessman will tell you that you salt away some money in good times for a rainy day fund to tide you over in bad times. Lodges that failed to look ahead, failed to do any long term planning and operated by just squeaking by will suffer the consequences and pay the ultimate price.